[Read Between the Tech: Epi 3]  EDIB Initiatives and the Modern CEO

• How CEOs Can Make Diversity And Inclusion A Priority: https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbescoachescouncil/2022/07/13/how-ceos-can-make-diversity-and-inclusion-a-priority/

• With an inclusive mindset comes powerful perspectives: https://www.kornferry.com/insights/featured-topics/leadership/inclusive-mindset-provides-powerful-perspectives

• What 11 CEOs Have Learned About Championing Diversity: https://hbr.org/2017/08/what-11-ceos-have-learned-about-championing-diversity

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Disclaimer: This transcription was written by AI, thanks to Descript, and has not been edited for content.

[00:00:00] Katherine: Hello and welcome to Read Between the Tech, the podcast that explores how companies can have richer and strategic conversations about the future of their current technology. Whether you're a tech enthusiast, business leader, or simply interested in the impact of technology in a company's growth, this podcast will have something for you.

[00:00:20] Katherine: So join us on this journey as we read between the tech and uncover the real stories behind your organization's technology and its future success. Let's listen in on this episode.

[00:00:31] Eric: Good morning everyone and Nancy and Eric are gonna chat about EB and why EB is important for not-for-profits and in the commercial workplace.

[00:00:39] Eric:  And I'd love to give Nancy just a moment to introduce herself. I'm Eric Sugar from ProServ it. I'm the CEO here and my partner today. My fire chat is Nancy McKay.

[00:00:47] Nancy Mckay: Thank you so much for inviting me back, Eric, to serve the not-for-profit community in the audience. I'm Nancy McKay, I'm the founder and c e o of.

[00:00:57] Nancy Mckay: The k c forum that our dream is to populate the world with inspiring leaders, and this topic is so important to creating more inspiration in the world. So really excited to have a chat with you again that year.

[00:01:10] Eric:  Excellent. Thanks Nancy. So Nancy, again I love how you present eb. I love how you shared your thoughts on it.

[00:01:17] Eric: I love that Macio forms a B Corp and it really believes in helping people belong and become inclusive. Why are you passionate about Egypt? What makes it important for you, and why do you drive it into your workplace?

[00:01:30] Nancy Mckay: As the key and the heart of CIO forms where we offer these peer support groups, and I know you're a very valuable member and we're partners that the key is to create a world that is judgment free, so that we as business leaders, treat every single person as a human being.

[00:01:50] Nancy Mckay: And that's just so fundamental to the passion I have and the contribution I wanna make in the world is to continue to really share that message with everyone that what if we actually just treated each other as human beings and not had any judgments around others, whether it's their gender, their race, their ethnicity, what they do, and just treat people.

[00:02:17] Nancy Mckay: As amazing human beings and how do we really help people get the most out of and make the biggest contribution? And for me personally, as a female c e o for 16 years, I just transitioned to the founder board member role in the cacio forums. It wasn't exactly an easy riot. Being a female in a very male dominated world as the C E o wasn't easy when I was a professor.

[00:02:41] Nancy Mckay: Wasn't easy when I was in big firm consulting firms. On my journey because we still live in a very male dominated business world. And so there are things that I can do to help people be more inclusive, to help people understand what does it really mean to create diversity and inclusion. Then I just wanna serve in the world in that way.

[00:03:05] Eric: So you've shared with me and you've helped me along my journey, Nancy, and one of the things you called out there was judgment free. How does that apply to our CEOs and executives about themselves? And it's just something to share with them because they're here and because I think it's something you've shared with me and I've experienced and it's helped me love your perspective on that, to understand how that concept of judgment free also applies to self.

[00:03:26] Nancy Mckay: It starts with self judgment free, right? Because what I've learned in working with so many CEOs and executives and business owners over the years is that. The beginning of not judging other people is to really step into your own success, to believe in yourself, and I call it self-love, which leads to self-confidence and self-esteem.

[00:03:51] Nancy Mckay: See, because if I love myself and if I believe I'm enough, exactly who I am today, I'm a gem unique human being. I'm not comparing myself to others. I don't have to be any better than anybody else. I'm just me. I'm a level person. I'm. I'm a, I have a lot of offer. If I believe that about myself and I stop judging myself of not being good enough, smart enough, fast, then I am more likely to embrace other people and not judge them and look for the good in them.

[00:04:23] Nancy Mckay: And I'm not trying to be pollata because people, I love every single human being on the planet. I don't necessarily love all of their behaviors, especially when it creates. Exclusion. And people aren't treated like human beings, especially in the workplace, right? So yeah, it starts with treating ourselves as an amazing human being.

[00:04:44] Nancy Mckay: And then that gives us a framework for how we're gonna show up and treat other people.

[00:04:50] Eric: And y you've worked with thousands of CEOs, and I think you've shared how you believe edit matters and why it's important in the workplace to help maybe get other people to buy into it. What value do you think EB brings to organizations and how does it change your organization when they behave inclusively, diversely, when they make belonging a core value to their business?

[00:05:13] Nancy Mckay: I think the key is, and I've shared a lot of my views on diversity and inclusion because for so many years, I believe the business world is focused on. Diversity, what are the targets you have for gender diversity, bipo diversity, whatever aspect of diversity that you're striving for as a business.

[00:05:34] Nancy Mckay: And of course, there's lots of research on diversity really matters, and that's how you're gonna speed up business results. But in fact, it's not how we're gonna speed up business results. It is the inclusion part of the formula that really is what adds the value. For example, for as an example, if we have 50% women at the top, which we're far from that, but let's just say that we have this gender diversity that everybody's striving for.

[00:06:10] Nancy Mckay: That doesn't mean that you're gonna get the most out of all the women in the group if you don't create inclusion and empathy and make it more. Powerful for them and easier for them to show up at their best. And the research around inclusion shows that if you create cultures and environments where people feel like they're part of the team, they feel like their voice really matters, they feel like they're not being judged by being because they're different, then you're gonna get the most out of them.

[00:06:45] Nancy Mckay: And if you don't do that, Then they just don't fully contribute. And I've had so many CEOs say to me why don't these people speak up? That we're not trying to exclude them? We're not trying to, but that's the whole point of inclusion. The whole point of inclusion is to say what if I actually made it much easier for everyone to have a voice?

[00:07:08] Nancy Mckay: What if I died down my voice, if I'm the dominant? Whatever it is, ethnicity or gender, what have you. But if I dialed things down to create the space for other people to have a greater contribution how might that impact the whole organization?

[00:07:25] Eric: And to share a bit from my experience with McKay co Farms, one of the things I think you've done an amazing job as you've built out the framework and the culture of the organization and the culture of the groups is you have inclusivity almost at the foundation.

[00:07:37] Eric: Every time we show up, everyone has to bring up an issue or a rock. They have to share what's going on in their life. So you create that inclusivity and give everyone a voice, and it automatically forces inclusivity into a group. And I think that's one really easy trick that leaders can use inside their businesses is create an inclusivity platform.

[00:07:54] Eric: At the beginning of all your meetings, have check-ins. Say good news, but right around the table, everyone has to do it. So I love that you not only believe in inclusivity, but it's almost foundational to how you built out McKay CEO forms. So again, appreciate that foundation

[00:08:08] Nancy Mckay: and I appreciate the kudos.

[00:08:09] Nancy Mckay: At the same time, I think we have a long way to go cuz I, I think at least the feedback I've had is still where there's some groups where they may have, let's say they have 30% women in their group, and I've talked to the women and they don't feel like they're. It's a very inclusive environment, so I'm not saying that's the norm.

[00:08:30] Nancy Mckay: I'm just saying that hey, we're all on the journey, and it is a lifelong journey of continuing to create that and continuing to make sure that people have equal airtime. And it's not the most seasoned c e o or the most. First with the longest tenure in the group, that takes up all the air time and same thing happens in organizations, right?

[00:08:52] Nancy Mckay: We like to think that we're a safe place for CEOs to learn from each other, how to be more inclusive, and then take those behaviors back into the workplace. But part of it is having people share their stories of do they feel included. And I think you're familiar with some of the work that John izo, I'm on the board of Blueprints, formerly called the Men's Initiative, where we've done a whole bunch of me Too research at Macio Forum on how we change the conversation.

[00:09:22] Nancy Mckay: We've also taken a look at and done some inclusion workshops, men and women participating together. And to me the most powerful part of those workshops has been getting people to share their stories of just asking people a question, tell me a time. In the business world where you felt excluded and what was that like for you?

[00:09:46] Nancy Mckay: And if we're not having these conversations and creating a safe place for people to have those conversations, nothing's gonna change. And so part of it is, inspiring leaders like you, Eric, really embracing this whole area of how do we create, treat people as human. How do we give them the space and have a void to just talk about what is this thing called inclusion and what are some of the things we can be doing differently to make everyone feel like they're valued?

[00:10:19] Eric: So what would you say is the most difficult part of either starting or creating a workplace that truly embraces and encourages a leader

[00:10:28] Nancy Mckay: I think the biggest challenge is creating the space. Where people feel safe to tell their stories. And that's not an easy thing to do, right? Because people that are in power positions over others and they creates sphere and all this kind of stuff.

[00:10:48] Nancy Mckay: So this is why I'm such a huge believer in bringing in external experts that can create the space to have conversations and to get people to share in their stories, and that creates greater empathy. And it creates more space to say, how might we together collectively be on the journey versus there's some expert or somebody knows.

[00:11:12] Nancy Mckay: I don't, I certainly don't have all the answers, but what I do know is we need to have these, a lot more of these conversations. I think one of the big things, one of the blessings of Covid is there's been this explosive growth of the B Corp movement, the beneficial corporation movement. Which is really getting leaders to take a stand upon diversity and inclusion and people, planet profit and creating workplaces where people can feel safe to be who they really are.

[00:11:42] Nancy Mckay: So I think, the step one is a mindset around inclusion really matters. It's the right thing to do, and of course it's a business case that's so solid. And then once you create the space, it's getting the experts to help.

[00:12:01] Eric: So how would you respond to a c e when they talk about I and when they promote I, and then they say, we hire, promote the best person for the job, regardless of race or gender.

[00:12:10] Eric: How do you shake that mindset or change that mindset or frame it so that it can be more inclusive or it can focus on the whole eib and understanding that's not an eib. Out Carter. I'm not, I'm doing my edit part, but,

[00:12:24] Nancy Mckay: I think that's the key is to understand the whole unconscious bias.

[00:12:31] Nancy Mckay: We all have biases and this is part of the whole judgment free, right? When you go through life. I remember this one CEO and he attended a peer group meeting for the first time to, to explore the opportunity. And after the meeting he said, you know what? I've never met a female c e o before. It was the first time in his life, literally because there were two female CEOs of the career, the first all he'd ever seen.

[00:12:57] Nancy Mckay: He said, I think it's so great that it's possible for women in today's world to become CEOs. And that was his genuine I just didn't know. So part of it is we have this unconscious blanket. So his was, and he said, I gotta be honest with you, I'm not proud of this, but I had this bias around. I've just never seen a female c o, so I just didn't believe it was possible.

[00:13:20] Nancy Mckay: So once you uncover what is that bias? Then you can do something with it and say, wow, okay, I have these biases. But a lot of it is we need to encourage exemplars and have people, be the first be ha give people the courage to, to be the first Bipo member of an executive team, to be the.

[00:13:44] Nancy Mckay: First bide BA, p c o to join a C E O group, like whatever that is. It takes a lot of courage at first because we know that people have these unconscious biases, and I think people have a very positive intention. I love human beings. I think we all have a very positive intention. I think people that say, oh, We hire people and we don't worry about gender, this and that, like we just hire the best person for the world.

[00:14:11] Nancy Mckay: I think they have a positive intention around it, like they really mean it and they want that. And the part though that gets in the way is if you don't really talk about what like the bias is, then nothing's ever gonna change, right? We're never gonna create a world where every single person is treated as Gene Bing, and every single person gets to make the biggest contribution every time.

[00:14:33] Eric: You shared a fairly large unconscious bias of, I didn't realize females could be CEOs. I think that small unconscious biases can be just as damaging and just as painful and hurtful to an organization and to people. Are there areas where you see unconscious bias and how do you help someone take the lenses off of the filters off so they can see there or become cognizant of their unconscious biases?

[00:14:58] Nancy Mckay: It's. That are prepared to tell the truth that are going to help soul for that. And we've talked about this, that my definition of love in the workplace is you're prepared, you love someone and care about them so much that you're prepared to tell them the truth in a very judgment free way.

[00:15:26] Nancy Mckay: So an example might be, If someone is at a meeting and I've been in this situation where I'm in a meeting and someone makes a comment that's derogatory towards, let's say, homosexuals, are you one of these people that's gonna sit there and just let it go? Because you don't wanna offend and you don't wanna be that person to tell the truth.

[00:15:56] Nancy Mckay: Or use that person that's gonna say, excuse me, I think what I heard you say is this, and I really wanna create a safe place for everyone here in this room to fully contribute. And I think that might get in the way of some people and in a respectful judgment free. So as long as everybody just keeps their mouth shut and doesn't tell the truth.

[00:16:25] Nancy Mckay: And doesn't show the love and respect for the people around them. By telling the truth, nothing's gonna change. So yeah, we all need to have a lot more courage and we all need to respectfully identify any type bias, unconscious conscious, whatever, so that we have a conversation around, Hey, am I the only person that.

[00:16:49] Nancy Mckay: Felt that was an awkward situation or moment because I'm feeling that it would be excluding a whole bunch of people. That's the kind of thing we have to have more courage around.

[00:16:59] Eric: I think that's a really important point, that silence is not only acceptance, silence is participation. And I think we need to all be very comfortable having hard conversations and saying things that make us uncomfortable.

[00:17:13] Eric: Talking about things that make us uncomfortable. So we And

[00:17:16] Nancy Mckay: judge with freight. Yes. Cause the thing is, the easy thing is to judge someone for making that comment about the homosexual. Yep. And it's not about judging that person. It is about saying to me, that didn't feel good. I'm feeling that's that.

[00:17:34] Nancy Mckay: That's right. And so at least being able to have the conversation judgment free. Cuz we all have biases and we all have our blind spots. So we wanna a safe place where we're gonna make mistakes, and then when we make those mistakes, we need people to tell the truth, to help us change those behaviors and to, create a space where everyone's treated a human being

[00:17:55] Eric: To help us learn and grow.

[00:17:56] Eric: Absolutely. So there is one way to respond to unconscious bias or to people who are not aligned with eb. How do you manage someone who's. Like blatantly not aligned to eip. How do you either manage them out of the business or how do you get them in line? So does so to speak, or is it you can't change people?

[00:18:16] Eric: What do you see there? How have you experienced that with other CEOs?

[00:18:20] Nancy Mckay: Part of it is, again, it goes back to having very truthful conversations with people and. I've had so many of our members, I'm very inspired by so many of our members where they will just not do business with people that aren't aligned with their values of integrity and being inclusive and right.

[00:18:46] Nancy Mckay: So it's making those decisions and really letting people know that, no, this is who we are. We're gonna take a stand on this. And people that don't want to be aligned with our culture, then they probably don't belong, aren't gonna be a fit. Let's not judge, but let's create the boundaries that we need to.

[00:19:08] Nancy Mckay: And that's it. Cuz there's only so much. Yeah. If you be, if you choose not to, then you're, that's your choice. But if there's no consequences, then people see that things are never gonna change because. We don't really walk the talk in this organization. Yep.

[00:19:23] Eric: Again, silence or acceptance is participation.

[00:19:26] Eric: You, you gotta be reinforcing that all over every time you're talking to people, I think. And then how do you get buy-in? So some, our team says, I want to champion the ED of initiative and we have ed of issues. How do you, and I'm not saying that's the case in our world, but if that's the case, how do you.

[00:19:45] Eric: Champion that. How do you secure the resources? How do you get buy-in from the entire company to make that shift or change?

[00:19:53] Nancy Mckay: I think the key is to identify IES advocates and people that are prepared to take a stand and that are prepared to be exemplars of judgment free. And I'll just give you an example because my own personal experience, which is around.

[00:20:10] Nancy Mckay: Supporting women and helping them get to the top. And I've dedicated a lot of my energy around diversity and inclusion to support women. And now with the whole B Corp movement and the Bipo diversity and totally committed to all aspects of diversity. But I have spent a lot of time on the whole gender inequity.

[00:20:31] Nancy Mckay: And I think, one of the things is that if we all. Find allies who are prepared to sink stand. And I always call it like you take a lot of hits. So for example I stood up there on stage with 400 people at our big summit and I said we're gonna commit to getting to 50% female participants in our McKay, C four inch purs.

[00:20:53] Nancy Mckay: And I had a lot of men and were they coming up to me afterwards going well why just women and what about, this group or that group or whatever. Or and equally, I had people say to me good for you for taking a stand on a very big goal that is gonna take a long time to achieve.

[00:21:12] Nancy Mckay: But right soaps, if you stand up and you just take a stand on what you believe in, you're gonna have the haters that are gonna not sign on. And then you're gonna have the people that are the advocates. And to me, I listen to the advocates and I say, thank you so much for your support. Would you be prepared to be on this journey with me?

[00:21:32] Nancy Mckay: And I do ask a lot of people to, can you please be on the journey with me to create an inclusive and diverse community? Within the case you'll form. So when I coach CEOs around diversity and inclusion, and I say to them, who are the allies you've gotten in your organization that are prepared to take a stand?

[00:21:52] Nancy Mckay: And not be the most popular person necessarily, because they're gonna be taking controversial stands on certain things to move the needle, get those people to be your advocates and allies. It's not all on you.

[00:22:06] Eric: And is my thinking that it's really important for this to go right to the top, kinda safe and valid that the c e o has to be involved in this?

[00:22:14] Eric: They can't deflect this or opt out or delegate this. They have to be involved and it's. Part of our responsibility as leaders to be involved. Is that a fair assumption?

[00:22:23] Nancy Mckay: That's the dream. Our dream is popular, the world inspiring leaders. We happen to work with 1200 CEOs, executives, and business owners.

[00:22:30] Nancy Mckay: And the dream is that all of the people that are part of, at least our community, have that mindset that diversity and inclusion is a key part of their role, like they need to take a stand on. At the same time, we don't live in a dream world, and my experience has been, Even if you don't have the CEO being the advocate, every single person on the planet, including every single person here in the audience today, has an opportunity to take a stand and to influence the people that they influence in their own right.

[00:23:05] Nancy Mckay: In other words, I've spent many years saying to people, we're not waiting around for the bosses. We are going to be our own inspiring leaders. And we're going to take a stand on things and we're going to affect the change that we're able to affect, and that's what's going to speed things up if we're not waiting around for people at the top to make it all happen.

[00:23:27] Eric: So last question for you, Nancy, and again, I really appreciate your perspective. I appreciate your time today. What's the biggest piece of advice you'd give for CEOs when it comes to,

[00:23:38] Nancy Mckay: I would say the biggest piece of advice is get educated. Surround yourself with game changers. If you are serious about eb, then it like surround yourself with game changers. People have been there, done that before, have a proven track record. They're further ahead on the Edith journey than you are today.

[00:24:01] Nancy Mckay: And that can be thought leaders and experts. It can be other CEOs who are just further down the path. It can be getting involved with the beneficial corporation movement because there's a lot of educational information that comes out of becoming part of that community around what are the things we can be doing to create a more inclusive world.

[00:24:21] Nancy Mckay: So get educated and surround yourself with game changers will be two pieces of life.

[00:24:26] Eric: Thank you so much, Nancy. Again, really appreciate your time today. The audience will love this session. They've, again, loved last year's session. Again, thank you so much and have a great day.

[00:24:34] Nancy Mckay: Thanks Eric for the invitation and thank you for inspiring me every day to be the best version of Life Self.

[00:24:40] Nancy Mckay: Eric, every opportunity I have to partner with you and your amazing team at Pro serve it your exemplars of this ebi, and I know because. I've learned a lot from ProServe it on this whole journey as well. So very grateful. Of course, you've helped us with all of our IT needs as well, so I'll be forever grateful for you and your entire team in terms of your support firm in case you'll farms community.

[00:25:05] Nancy Mckay: Thank you so much. Thank Nancy.

[00:25:07] Eric: Bye.

[00:25:09] Katherine: And that's all the time we've got for today's episode of Read Between the Tech. We hope you enjoyed listening and learned something new about how technology can help shape the success of your organization. Don't forget to subscribe to our monthly newsletter and get insightful IT resources, tips.

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[00:25:54] Katherine: We'd love to hear your thoughts on today's episode, so feel free to leave us a comment or contact us on LinkedIn @ProServeIT with your feedback and ideas for future episodes. Thank you for listening and we'll see you next time on Read Between the Tech.

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